In this week’s episode of The Envelope video podcast, Tyler James Williams reveals that the team behind “Abbott Elementary” actually loves frustrating viewers, and “Hacks” star Paul W. Downs weighs in on the debate over which shows in the Emmy race deserve to be described as a comedy.
Mark Olsen: Welcome back to the Envelope podcast. I’m Mark Olsen and I’m here with —
Yvonne Villarreal: Yvonne Villarreal.
Shawn Finnie: Shawn Finnie.
Olsen: This is our first episode back since Emmy nominations happened, and we’ve got some really great conversations with some very exciting nominees lined up over the next couple of episodes. Today has turned out to be Comedy Day. Shawn, who did you talk to.
Finnie: Tyler James Williams, “Abbott Elementary.” We’ve known him since “Everybody Hates Chris,” even well before that, which I didn’t quite understand. He’s done a lot of work even before “Everybody Hates Chris.” Voice acting, so many other different things. Got a chance to talk with him — and he’s hilarious in real life, which I always say with comedians, “Is that just for camera or are you actually like this?” — but just his entire career and what success means to him now. So we went really deep. As funny as he is, we went really deep. But also got to see his perspective on Greg and why he does what he does and the decisions that he makes. And so it really gave the character, I think, a bit more arc.
Villarreal: I just have to pause because it’s Gregory. We say the full name in this house.
Finnie: [Laughs] In this house, we say Gregory. What about you, Yvonne? Who’d you speak with?
Villarreal: I spoke with Paul W. Downs, who’s the co-creator and showrunner of “Hacks,” alongside his wife, Lucia Aniello, and Jen Statsky, and they’ve worked together for a long time on shows like “Broad City.” But he’s also in “Hacks”: He plays Jimmy, the sort of well-meaning manager to Deborah, who’s played by Jean Smart, and Ava, who’s played by Hannah Einbinder. And he spends a lot of this season trying to sort of help Deborah achieve this goal of getting “Late Night.” He’s branched out on his own. He’s trying to make a name for himself alongside his trusty and hilarious assistant Kayla, played by Megan Salter. And this is the first time he’s been nominated as an actor, so we talked a little bit about what that was like for him and just this season, which was really well received.
Olsen: Yvonne, I sat in when you were doing that interview and I thought it was so interesting to hear Paul talk about the way he operates in two minds as sort of a producer brain and an actor brain when he’s performing and putting the show together.
Villarreal: Yeah, it was fun to sort of pick his brain on the arc of the season, but also just his approach to this character. He’s really funny. I don’t think I measured up to being as funny as him by any means, but it was fun to speak with him, for sure. But Shawn, we’re going to start with your interview with Tyler James Williams after the break.
Tyler James Williams in “Abbott Elementary.”
(Gilles Mingasson / Disney)
Shawn Finnie: I’m here with the three-time Emmy-nominated Tyler James Williams. You know, Tyler, I’m not gonna pretend like we didn’t just have a whole conversation here [before] the cameras [went on].
Tyler James Williams: It was deep. It was great.
Finnie: Congratulations. I’m proud of you. I’m excited for you. And I’m curious because I feel like you’ve been in this business for a while. You’re young, very young, still, but been in this business for a minute, right? And I imagine it’s never bad news when you find out your Emmy nominated.
Williams: No. It’s not the worst thing.
Finnie: Yeah, it’s not the worst thing that could happen. And I’m curious, like, what does it mean for you, with all the experience that you have now? What does it mean for you now? And how has that meaning changed, if it has?
Williams: I’ve always wanted to earn my spot in this industry. I’ve always wanted to, you know, not just rest on past successes. I wanted to be able to step in front of a camera and take the privilege that is working in the time that we work in and in the position that I’m in, and take that seriously. So to me, the nomination coming in just reaffirms that in a way. I just wanted to kind of do good work, that the people who I respect would respect. What’s really nice about nomination day is there is always some aspect of like, everything’s up in the air. Everyone made really good TV this year. So to still have my name on that list, it immediately humbles [me] and brings in a bunch of gratitude. It’s never expected. It’s always like this — out of everybody who was onscreen this year, there should be a laundry list of names that should be up there, so the fact that mine is up there is special.
Finnie: When I think about you earning your spot, personally, I think about, like, such a wide range of experiences, you know, film, series, voice acting — which a lot of people don’t really fully understand or know. How do all those cumulative experiences prepare you when you go into your next role? So like, for example, to jump into Gregory,how did that prepare you for Gregory in “Abbott Elementary.”
Williams: Before “Abbott,” the last project I did was “The [United States] vs. Billie Holiday” with [director] Lee [Daniels] and [star] Andra [Day]. We wrapped that movie and went into the pandemic. And then after the pandemic came “Abbott.” It changed the way I prepped “Abbott.” I was prepping a biopic, where there’s this very high bar — you’re playing a real person and you have to get their story accurate and all of that. And I think people look at network TV and go, “You don’t have to approach it that way.” And that’s what it did. I approach everything the same way. So all of those experiences, I think, led into how I learned how to prep everything. That was the most important lesson I’ve ever learned: Regardless of what it is, prep it as if you know the person you respect the most is going to see it.
Finnie: It helps you get perspective because the prep is difficult. And the prep is not always sexy. People think like, “Oh, you’re getting ready for this film.” You’re like, “I have been studying this person’s isms — “
Williams: Over and over and over and over again.
Finnie: I didn’t really grow up with educators that looked like your character. I’m not sure if you did.
Williams: No, I didn’t.
Finnie: What was it that, coming out of that pandemic and all of that, that made you really be like, “I really want to step into this one”?
Williams: I think the pandemic changed the game completely. It changed the way our brains work, our emotional selves. So I wanted something that could address that in some way. I knew the world wasn’t healing. It needed something light in a way. So that was the first thing I was thinking about. But then it wasn’t until [creator and costar] Quinta [Brunson] and I got on the phone about Gregory and that she brought that opportunity up. She goes, “We have an opportunity here to show Black men caring for the next generation in an educational capacity in a way that has not been shown before.” And that was the key in for me. I need a purpose behind what I’m doing, or else I’ll end up floundering with that in character. And just like finding, “What are we driving it?”
Finnie: And why.
Williams: And why. What’s the why? Especially with doing network TV where you’re going to do a high volume of episodes, your purpose for going into that has to be very clear. And that was it. That was enough for me. I was like, “I can tell this story for four, five, six years. And watch this man grow. And there was also this aspect of him becoming himself. He’s at that age where he’s expected to be in a position of authority but isn’t quite there yet and doesn’t know what he’s passionate about, is trying to be successful and do the right thing, but it’s up in the air. And showing, I think, particularly Black men in process for me has always been a thread through my career.
Finnie: OK, I need to just expand on that a little bit. Talk to me about Black men in process.
Williams: I feel like we get, a lot of times, judged for where we are as if it’s an end destination. That wherever the point in the story is that you found us, that’s —
Finnie: That’s all we’ll be.
Williams: That’s all we’ll be, that’s all we can grow into. And that’s something that’s so incredibly limiting. That’s why it’s been so important, I think, to show the evolution of what we’re capable of. Gregory starting off cold and and closed off, and then you see these moments of warmth where he chooses to not only fall in love with his job and his kids, but it’s really important to me to show him fall in love with not only Janine, but the romantic aspects of it. There’s, like, moments in the finale of Season 3 where there’s a stage that’s really beautiful and romantic, and I wanted to take the time to show him appreciate that. So it wasn’t just something for her. It’s him also falling in love with falling in love. And that, to me, is just part of our process and our journey.
Finnie: Season 1 was like an introduction to the character. Season 2, you got to know them a bit more and then [Season] 3 to me, it was like the complexities of the character. I’m curious [about] your management of Gregory’s complexities. I feel like he was also navigating, to your point, everyone’s idea of success, juxtaposed to his idea of success. So I’m curious for you like that complexity of Gregory.
Williams: That’s what I loved most about Season 3. There were moments that he got dirty and I love that. Because I think in a way, as somebody who is as professional as he is and also a Black man in the world, you know how to show up in a way that’s safe for other people.
Finnie: Yes. It’s nonthreatening.
Williams: So that there’s no issues. You can’t say anything wrong. And then in Season 3 you see these moments of him being jealous. … I love that because that’s what you need to understand the complexity of him. It’s difficult and it carries a lot of weight. I remember we shot the double date scene in the bar all night long and I was just constantly refining it and trying just enough to go over the edge for him, but not too much that he’s like completely turned off. It’s a difficult line to walk, but that’s why I like walking it. I like doing it because it’s hard, because it’s going to be a razor’s edge of something that takes it too far or something that doesn’t. He deserves that amount of complexity.
Finnie: And the nuances. Because I think what’s interesting is that you’re right, that that scene in particular, there’s the things that are said that are verbal, that you’re like, “I know exactly how he feels. He is upset at this moment.” But then there’s the pieces I feel — like with Janine in that set, we as the audience are watching him appreciate it, and I feel like that’s not in dialogue, that’s in expression. And I’m just so curious because I feel like this show in particular, all the looks to camera that everybody talks about — which you’ve been doing for a very long time, by the way — talk to me about like how you convey those emotions that are not said…
Williams: I don’t watch anything. I don’t watch episodes. To me, in order to keep it authentic, I can’t be going, “I’m trying to replicate this thing.” I just have to live in the moment of what I’m feeling. But every script I get, I go through it and I love what’s on the page, but that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m looking on what’s not. What’s in between these lines? And a big part of that is my cast and getting there on the day and listening to them. And what they’ve brought to it gives me more to play with. But I’m one of those people who, like, if my if my script isn’t littered with notes of ideas, of things to do in these in-between places, then I don’t feel like I’m doing my job. When we’re having a conversation, you’re not just waiting for your thing to say. You have opinions about what I’m saying as those words come out of my mouth. You want to make a fully fleshed-out character, you have to not only know how they feel, but how they feel about what everyone else in this scene is saying.
Finnie: It’s interesting because I think about — speaking of the writing team — there was a little thing called a strike. I imagine right in the middle of shooting Season 3. Maybe including that or not including that, what was the most challenging part about shooting Season 3 or opportunities of growth for you or the cast?
Williams: So right now we’re prepping for Season 4. There’s months of prep that kind of goes into talking about the storylines and getting yourself ready and figuring things out. Because of the strike, we couldn’t do any of that. It was like, “Strike’s over, you’re back to work.” So we just kind of jumped in and there wasn’t that calibrating that usually happens at the top. And I think that was difficult for us. We all talked about it. We were like, it wasn’t until we all did our first scene together that we felt like we weren’t being caricatures of the character.
Finnie: Was it the library scene?
Williams: Yeah. We were in the library. We were like, “Here we are. We’re back.” It’s an ensemble. We needed each other to kind of get back into that rhythm. I think that was the most difficult part. And also we did 13 episodes instead of 20, 22, which changes the way you tell the story. It’s a lot faster. So that makes the double date episode with Gregory as this big kind of jealous moment — it would have been nice to have that happen over three episodes. We have to execute this in just one. That made it challenging and more difficult. But I think we just rise to the occasion whenever that happens.
Finnie: You all play to the audience in a way that is so unique. And I’m curious, like, do you all get hate mail, on Instagram and Twitter? I kept thinking like, “Yo, if Gregory does not come out here…”
Williams: Yes. The answer is yes. We get a good amount. And I also get it from people on the street. Like, “Ay, man, if Greg don’t figure this out, man, I don’t know what to tell him at this point. He’s my boy, but he gotta get with it. To tell you the truth, one of the things that Quinta and I enjoy the most is knowing we’re going to frustrate people. Like, “They’re going to hate this. I love this so much.” And it’s fun. I felt that feeling living in Gregory’s skin. We shot the last scene of Season 3, and it was the scene right before Gregory goes back to Janine’s apartment and Jacob is, like, “What are you doing?”
Finnie: Jacob was all of us.
Williams: But I looked at the writers and I went, like, “Why am I not in there? What’s happening?” And that was the perfect time to feel it. That’s how I knew: “I’m running out of excuses. I can’t justify this for him any longer.” That’s how you know we’re at the right spot.
Finnie: And everybody’s relief when you walked in there. But the way that you looked at the camera, all of us were, like, “OK, finally!” And then the closing of the blinds. But even for you both, like for Gregory and Janine’s character, like, what do you think that moment meant? How do you think, without giving me anything about Season 4 — unless you want to give an exclusive — how do you think it might impact their future in the in the coming months.
Williams: When I took notes on that scene, it was one of the few that actually didn’t have a lot, and the only word on there was “Enough.” That’s kind of what it was for them to me. Is them going, “All right enough of this. Whatever we’ve been doing, enough of that.” I can confidently say that they have crossed into territory that is uncharted for them. That’s the first time they were addressing how they feel for each other at the same time, and not being afraid of what happens next. Now we have to play out what happens next, which may not be as linear as I think everyone expects it to be.
I remember like we talked about it for like two or three weeks beforehand: What does it need to look like? What does it need to feel like? This has to feel different from the first kiss because that felt kind of tentative. And this should feel like a defining moment. But that was it. The goal was to just put a period on that phase of their life and just say, “Enough of the hemming and hawing. We’re walking forward either way.”
Finnie: I also really appreciated the [other] pairings… So I’m just curious for you, about that synergy between Greg and Jacob.
Williams: Oh, it’s one of my favorite, favorite story arcs. Chris Perfetti, anytime I am in front of a camera with that man, it is an absolute privilege. To me, Season 2 was defined as the will they/won’t they of Gregory and Jacob. Them finding each other and finding a way. Because I truly believe that Jacob is integral to Janine and Gregory working. If this is going to work, if it’s going to move forward, it’s going to take Jacob to get it done. And I think a lot of people haven’t realized that the story could be told from a lot of different perspectives. And I think there’s a show in Jacob trying to make this relationship work in itself as the A story. To me, that’s one of the sweetest parts of this show, is you see people who decide to be invested in each other’s lives and feel a good amount of anxiety when something may not go well for the person next to them. And we see people take care of each other in a way that I think we haven’t seen in a while. And that’s one of the more beautiful parts of this.
Finnie: The compassion, right? Where it’s like we’re co-workers but it’s an interesting family dynamic. … I feel like you’re really invested in a very honest way and you’re watching these people become family.
Williams: Hopefully it reflects what’s happening or will happen in the world. You also have people from a lot of different points of view here. People who are flawed and problematic — like, Ava was one of the more problematic characters I think we’ve ever seen on television… But what I love seeing is people love her and go, “But she does get things done. And people have different ways of doing things, but I think this show reinforces that idea that people can be different from you. You can have opinions about how they do things and what they do to get things done. But you can all still choose each other at the same time. You can choose somebody for who they are, not in spite of who they are. And that I think we just need a little bit more of because we’re in a place right now where we’re really quick to throw people away who just don’t align with how I would have gotten it done.
Finnie: Or the mistake that they may have made, and that’s not who they are forever. They’re not in process any more.
Williams: That’s what I’m saying. This show shows people in process and it reminds us that we all are, and we don’t all always make the great call. And when that is the case it’s not something that, you know, needs to be fully condemned all of the time. It’s just somebody in progress. This is a growing movement.
Finnie: I appreciate that through humor I believe real issues are being tackled. I’m like, “Salute the writing team.”
Williams: They have not changed in three seasons.
Finnie: It’s impeccable, but also the way that they encapsulate culture. It’s so authentic. We know when sometimes it doesn’t feel authentic. I’m curious for you, like when you’re reading on the paper… how are you actually receiving, when you receive the scripts, of where is going?
Williams: I know the rhythms of the show. I also know the way Quinta writes and a lot of the writers write, so when I see somebody’s name on the script, I know what I’m anticipating. But every now and then there’s just something that, like, I have to close my script and just put my head down… And I’ll send the text to whoever wrote the episode like, “This joke particularly got me — it got me in a way where it even shocked me.” And I think that’s part of the beauty of it. There was one in the field trip from last year. Janine and Jacob were talking about her and Gregory. And Jacob says, “A little birdie told me that Gregory has feelings for you.” And Janine responds like realistically, “Do you have a bird that’s a friend who told you that.” And it was like, “That got me. That’s my kind of stupid.” So the fact that I can still have those moments, in this show, going into Season 4 — we just had two table reads and same thing happened — the fact that we’re still here means that we got legs, and I’m really grateful for that.
Finnie: What’s been also amazing is how you’re bringing other people in [as guest stars], like Taraji [P. Henson]… What is a standout experience from Season 3?
Williams: Tatyana Ali and I have known each other since I was 17.
Finnie: I still know her song by heart.
Williams Oh, of course. Her coming in — and same thing with Cree Summer, who came in — you have these people who pioneered TV and to me, it’s kind of like watching LeBron right now playing at the Olympics and killing it. It’s like watching somebody like, “Yeah, you still got it. You never lose it.” And people a lot of times struggle when they come into our show, finding the tone. What it ends up being in the edit is not how we shoot it, completely, so it’s an adjustment. She fell right in. Same thing with Cree. And I was like, that’s a vet. To me, that gives me a lot. It gives me a lot to see people who executed this artistic platform perfectly and can still do it. It makes it all worth it.
Finnie: I think about her, and I think about the legacy of seeing culture and specifically Black culture on television and it was just them existing. It wasn’t a caricature of anything. It was just the existence of a family and the things that we all know. And then I think about the legacy of you and you starting this very young. And I’m curious, like now, today, like where you are, what would you tell you, then? …
Williams: Never lose the reason why you came here. And he won’t. He’s not going to. That’s what’s great about it is, like, I know that he won’t. But on this road people forget why. They forget the original thing. That original feeling that was like that spark. And I’m watching kids now have the spark on a daily basis. Never forget the spark. Because the spark will keep you on the right path. Ultimately for me, my career was always the most important thing in my life. If I couldn’t do the thing that I’d love to do, I didn’t know what else there was going to be. And there’s a certain amount of stakes that come with that and responsibility that comes with that. So yeah, I think it would be that. Don’t forget these days, because these days are going to be the thing that is your North Star.
Finnie: I had to stop from being like, “Amen!” … We talked about this a little bit, but when I think of dreams and goals, at one point I was like, “I just got to get there. Can I just get there?” And then once I got to an emotional maturity and I was like, “Oh, I can get there.” I call it “staying there power.” I think it changes, success — how we define success. What does “staying there power” mean for you right now?
Williams: Quality. That’s what it means. I’m in a position where, because of how long my career has been and the success that I’ve had, that I have now the ability to be financially pretty stable. Now is not the time to just run that number up and do as much work as I possibly can for volume. Staying power is using the power that is financial stability wisely and with grace, and not chasing every dollar that gets thrown at me. But understand there’s a responsibility to not only my audience, but to that little kid who wasn’t doing it for that. That, to me, is what success looks like. If I can stand behind the projects that I do and go, “I gave you everything I have on this, and I feel like it’s really good,” that’s success.
Paul W. Downs in Season 3 of “Hacks.”
(Jake Giles Netter / Max)
Villarreal: Paul, thanks so much for joining us.
Downs: Thank you for having me.
Villarreal: Congratulations — the show was nominated for 17 Emmy nods, including best comedy, and acting nods for Jean, Hannah and yourself. You’ve been nominated before in a writer-producer role, but you’ve often talked about how writing was a means to get you to perform. So, I’m curious how you’re processing being an Emmy nominee as an actor.
Downs: It’s hard. It’s barely sinking in. It was a shock. I was really shocked. I mean, obviously, I was thrilled. Yeah, it, it just, it does feel different. This one hits different.
Villarreal: How so?
Downs: It’s such a competitive category. There’s so many great actors in so many great shows, and there are only six nominees. It was not something that I was anticipating. Obviously, you say, like, Jean Smart — we hope gets a nomination; and Hannah Einbinder absolutely should. But yeah, it [my own] was just one that was just unexpected. That was cool.
Villarreal: And your kid is not impressed by it?
Downs: You know, we did tell him, ‘Dada got a nomination’ and he said, ‘Can you do this?’ So I was like, ‘Yeah, I can do that. I also am an Emmy nominee, so I can cross my fingers.” It’ll sink in. It’ll eventually sink in.
Villarreal: Never have I [more] wanted Deborah to be real than in this moment. Once she’s in this late-night circuit, how long before she’s asking Jimmy to find a way to get Anthony [Anderson] or [Jimmy] Kimmel off the ticket as the next Emmys host?
Downs: Oh, that is absolutely her move. That is so her move. It’s so funny because we were just talking about Kimmel today. I was in the writers’ room on the way over here, on a Zoom. Do you think he would do it? Do you think he’ll cameo? I think he’s got a sense of humor.
Villarreal: Yeah, he’ll cameo.
Downs: But Deborah would absolutely want to host. It’s so her thing.
Villarreal: Do you think she would be good at it? What would those jokes be like? Who would she go after?
Downs: Oh, man. Who wouldn’t she go after? There is no line. In her words, there is no line. So, it would be fun.
Villarreal: With all the fantastic things that have been happening, what’s an unexpected way that your daily life has changed with the show’s success?
Downs: My dad recently brought some scrap metal to a salvage yard and they said to him, “Paul Downs?” and he said, “Yeah, not the one from ‘Hacks.’” And the woman that works there was like, “I just started watching because my father-in-law, who owns the salvage yard, loves the show. If he’s ever in town, we’ll give him a T-shirt.” So I get a lot of perks at the metal dump, if that’s something. That’s one perk. But day to day, it hasn’t really changed my life.
Villarreal: People aren’t stopping you?
Downs: People do stop [me]. People have stopped me more and more. And that’s actually something that’s interesting. We were traveling this summer, and it’s funny, the places you go that people have seen “Hacks,” which is really wild. Because of course, that kind of thing has happened before with other roles I’ve had, but there is something about “Hacks” that it’s really surprising the kinds of people that approach you. There’s people who fancy themselves Deborahs. There are the women of a certain age who love the show and identify with her. And then, in Season 2, we shot in a mall. And there were teenage boys, probably 15-year-old boys, who were like, “Yo, that’s Deborah Vance.” And they wanted photos with Jean. And she did not get it. She was like, “You know the show? And you know me?” So it’s really wild: the age range of people that watch the show and connect with it.
Villarreal: The third season has been hailed as one of the best. I think I had, like, three separate threads going at any given time talking about this show. That’s a high-wire act to pull off, to keep the momentum going on a TV series, especially in this climate. And with comedy, you’re reliant on how the audience is responding. But with a show like this, you’re not filming in front of an audience and you’re filming well in advance of the season airing. Who or what do you sort of lean on for feedback to make sure this is landing the way you want to? Like, are you asking your mom, or a friend?
Downs: That’s so funny. Sometimes because both my parents and Lucia’s parents have come during shooting to help because we have a new kid, sometimes they’ll overhear something and be like, “That’s funny.” And we’re like, “OK, well, it’s working for moms.” But we actually, we really do rely on our cast and crew. When the crew is laughing or when the the camera guy is shaking and we have to redo a take because something has just really worked, that’s one way. And someone like Jean has been working so prolifically and has done sitcoms in front of a live studio audience, has done drama, and has done so much, that when she comes to set and is like, “I am excited for the scene,” then you really know it’s something. Also, we do film with a lot of background actors because so much of it is her performing stand-up, and it’s funny how it’s hard for them sometimes to fake laughter. So Jean really has to sell, and she can. Jean is so good at landing a punch line, and she actually feels like a real stand-up that a lot of the times it is the laughter of those background actors that you’re hearing in the show. It’s not canned. It’s not something we add. That’s another way you can tell if a joke worked is because there are a lot of people on set who are asked to respond to it.
Villarreal: Is there a moment from this season that you were really curious how it was going to be [received] once you saw it be performed?
Downs: There is a scene in the finale, in “Bulletproof,” where I go after Kayla on the plane and I make this big overture and proposal. We knew was going to really depend a lot on our guest actors and also our background actors, because it’s so much about the people in this first class cabin being like, “Oh!” and reacting to what they think is a proposal. And it was so great to shoot it with people that were so in the scene because it made it so much funnier. It made it so fun for Meg and I.
Villarreal: One of the interesting discussion points that have come out of the Emmy nominations is this idea of the tone difference between something like “Hacks” and something like “The Bear.” Do you view “The Bear” as a comedy?
Downs: I think that comedy is so subjective. It’s so hard to say what is funny to one person. For us, our show is about comedy. We’re making a show about comedians and comedy writers, and so certainly our North Star is being funny first. That’s the thing for us. But regardless of the tones of the shows, I’m just glad to see that there are other comedies that are resonating with people, because I think there is a crisis in comedy right now. Comedy is so important for our cultural discourse, for our cultural literacy, and I feel like there are less and less being made and less and less shows that have a third, fourth, fifth season. So the fact that any show resonates that’s a comedy, it’s really important. I think that comedy is so undervalued and it’s really so important politically, especially in a time when people need to find things to laugh about together. I think it’s certainly a crisis.
Villarreal: What do you think Deb would make of this moment and what points she would find as talking points in a set?
Downs: You mean in this moment politically? I do think Deborah Vance would also share that sentiment — that there isn’t enough comedy going on, there isn’t enough comedy in the world. Politically, I think she would have a lot to mine in terms of what’s going on in this election cycle. The truth is, I think at one point or another, Deborah might have been friends with Trump. No longer, no longer, no longer a fan. I think she probably rubbed elbows at some point. And they certainly sometimes share interior designers. She’s a little bit … cafone is the word in Italian. She’s a little bit gaudy. Yes, the gold. But, yeah, I think she would have a lot to say. She’s so fiery and so feminist that I think this would be a moment she wouldn’t hold back.
Villarreal: She would try getting them on the show, no?
Downs: Hundred percent. Well, at least Kamala [Harris]. Yeah, for sure. She certainly wouldn’t ruffle any hair. I don’t think she would have that moment with Trump.
Villarreal: She might with Vance though? Try to reclaim the name because that’s what people were [pointing out] when [JD Vance was announced as Trump’s running mate].
Downs: That’s right, that’s right. She would absolutely have a “no relation” campaign. She’s never done anything with a couch other than add a tassel or two — that’s the extent of her couch play.
Villarreal: When people think of Hollywood agents, we sort of associate it with fictional figures like Ari Gold from “Entourage” — this ball-breaking, fast-talking, egocentric guy. And Jimmy is very much not that. What were you interested in in terms of who he represents in this ecosystem?
Downs: I think the Ari Gold archetype is so familiar. We’ve seen the snake and the mover and the shaker. But in my experience, with my representatives — and just the idea of an old-school manager, those were usually people who love movies, who loved TV. If they didn’t have the gift of being creative, they wanted to be a part of it. They wanted to help platform comedians and help set up a movie and make it happen. We really wanted to channel this. Deborah is sort of this old-school showbiz icon and with Jimmy, we want to do a similar thing of this person who’s really well-meaning and really cares because there are those people. You just don’t always see them. And we always joke representation for representation is important. They have to see themselves. And hey, maybe it’s inspiring to new management people. Maybe they’re like, “Well, OK, we can have a moral compass, in addition to being a mover and a shaker.”
Villarreal: Do you think there’s a chance he could evolve into a figure like Ari Gold? Is there a time where success just turns people?
Downs: I think power corrupts; and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So you never know. Depending on how successful he gets — I guess the thing that keeps him grounded is his partner, is Kayla Schaefer. And we have someone who is very outside the box. So I think they’re always going to keep each other a little bit grounded. They’re very — they have this yin and yang thing. So I don’t know if he would ever fully be Ari Gold, but I could see him cracking a little bit.
Villarreal: What is your dynamic like with your own team? Are they ever worried, “Are you going to use this on the show?”
Downs: Every once in a while they’re like, “don’t use that…” But, also, sometimes they love being like, “Well, there was a story in the ‘80s about this person…” There’s something interesting and juicy about Hollywood lore. So every once in a while we’ll hear a really fun story and we’re, like, “There might be something to draw on.”
Villarreal: Do you think Jimmy would represent Paul W. Downs?
Downs: Absolutely, yeah. He loves representing fresh, young voices.
Villarreal: Let’s talk about Jimmy and Kayla, who’s played hilariously by Megan Stalter. Their dynamic is so weird but so fun. It’s like the best odd couple combo that we can have. How do you keep a straight face working opposite Megan?
Downs: Oh, I don’t. Both of us break a lot. No, that’s not true. The most breaking that happens on set is when Hannah Einbinder, who plays Ava, is with her mother, Nina, played by Jane Adams. They really crack each other up — and everybody up. But, yeah, we have to edit around us breaking. We don’t really cross-cover the show, so we don’t shoot both of us at the same time, which a lot of comedies do, which gives us some leeway in that department, but, also, for a scene like the plane scene, we actually didn’t break much. There was very little breaking.
Villarreal: How is it different acting opposite someone like Megan versus acting opposite someone like Jean?
Downs: It’s quite different. Meg and I get a kick out of each other and get to make each other laugh. And that’s part of the fun of it, is trying to make the other person break. And Jean is somebody who there isn’t really a lot of ad-libbing. She’s somebody who, not only has she done sitcom, but she’s also done a lot of theater. She really honors the text and she pretty much stays on the text. It’s interesting, when you’re with someone like Jean, she’s so fully committed and so she fully embodies the character so much that it makes your job so easy because you’re like, “Oh, I’m talking to Deborah Vance” and all the things that you need to feel you can because she is just such a fully realized character. The one thing that’s hard is sometimes not getting distracted by her performance because she’s so good.
Villarreal: I want to see the blooper reel.
Downs: I know.
Villarreal: Why aren’t those a thing anymore?
Downs: We always want them. It’s just, in this day and age, the schedule is pretty fast and so there’s not a lot of time for editors to cut those, I guess. I’m going to work on this. For you, I’m going to work on it.
Villarreal: One of the interesting or fun things for me, at least as a viewer looking at social media, is the discussion around shipping. Obviously, there’s a corner of social media that wants Ava and Deb to kiss already. There’s also a corner that wants Jimmy and Kayla to get a romance going. What intrigues you about those discussions in the fandom?
Downs: It’s so funny when people see that onscreen and want that. There are like the hardcore shippers like you’re talking about. Cole Escola was a consultant on Season 1, and after Season 1 aired, they emailed me, “Well, Jimmy and Kayla have to get married.” And I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know if that makes sense.” It’s also when you see the fun and the chemistry people have, I think a lot of times people are like, “Well, that’s love. That’s romantic love. That is what it’s got to be.” And it’s really interesting because sometimes I think that’s true. And sometimes I think what they’re seeing is a connection they haven’t seen outside of traditional romantic comedy. And so I think sometimes that’s where it comes from. But either way, I do think the phenomenon of shipping is so fun. We all do it. We all do it. I’ve done it for characters on TV.
Villarreal: Who did you ship?
Downs: Oh, man, I used to ship the characters in “The Killing.” I don’t think I was alone. I know that’s crazy, but [the characters played by] Joel Kinnaman and Mireille Enos. I was like, “C’mon, you guys are in love.”
Villarreal: As a writer, and maybe even as a performer, what do you find interesting about the undertones of those platonic dynamics where, like you said, there’s a love there, but it’s just not what we think it is?
Downs: I think it’s interesting to see new dynamics that we haven’t seen. And that’s one of the things, I think, that resonates with people about “Hacks.” You’ve seen comedies that it’s a mother-daughter or you’ve seen comedies — I worked on “Broad City” — where it’s like two best friends who … are very similar even though they are also very opposite. They are not a couple. But I think seeing the kind of love and complex relationship that Ava and Deborah have and that Jimmy and Kayla have, I think that’s one of the reasons people have sparked to the show, is because it feels fresh, and it feels like something that they haven’t seen onscreen, and it makes the stories we get to tell also pretty interesting because we get to approach big topics from very different points of view. That was always how we pitched the show, that it was this complicated, dark mentorship and love story between these two people. And I mean Jimmy and Kayla, but also Deborah and Ava.
Villarreal: How has it been working alongside your wife Lucia and and Jen? What have you learned is important when you’re collaborating with others and making sure things don’t get icky?
Downs: Part of the reason people feel the authentic comedy connection that Deborah and Ava have is because it comes from the feelings that Lucia, Jen and I have for each other. Whether we’ve experienced it or not, I think there’s famously many, many, many, many comedy teams or collaborators or creative partnerships that don’t end well, usually because of some kind of ego thing. And very early on, when we were first making the show, we were like, “Our relationship is more important than anything else because the show is our relationship, so that has to stay intact.” And I think when it doesn’t — I’m sure you could do some investigative journalism and find out that there are a lot of shows that started not to be as good when the creators or the collaborators stopped getting along, stopped sharing that joy of doing it together. It’s our kindredness that makes it what it is. We always have to talk if we have an issue. And I think the thing that’s great is we just respect each other a lot. And also three is helpful because there’s a tiebreaker. So there’s really never two of us that are really at a stalemate because one of us will say, “Well, I kind of think that one maybe?” And then it’s over. We move on.
Villarreal: Did you find that you had to give assurance — or not assurance, but let Jen know, “Just because [Lucia and I are] a couple, that doesn’t automatically…”
Downs: Well, we didn’t have to give her assurance because I think she knows it. What’s funny is, I think because we’re a couple, in some ways, we we are more likely to disagree, and then Jen is the tiebreaker. They both have the experience of living as women and so sometimes they understand something that I have a blind spot for and they see something that they feel passionately about. And that’s the other thing too. We are very much of the mind that if even one of us is really passionate about a joke, about something they find funny, we know someone else will find it funny. We also kind of have that veto card if someone’s like, “but this has to happen.” We always do it, we always shoot it, we always try it. And that’s the thing too, our process is, we write the scripts with our writers’ room, we write on set, and then we write in the edit. It’s so alive and fluid that there’s not a lot of “we can’t do that” or “we have to do this joke” because there’s chance to make it better or cut it out.
Villarreal: The real engine of the show is something that has always fascinated me, which is, what happens to talent when they’ve sort of fallen into obscurity or irrelevance? Deb is someone who’s in her third act and sort of not ready to face this idea that maybe she’s past her prime. And this season really showed what happens when she’s achieved all that she was sort of hungry for, and she got this holy grail thing, which was the late-night gig. What as a writer, but also as a performer, did that sort of help crystallize for you in terms of the the trappings of fame and how easy it is to sort of crave this stuff and how to keep yourself in check?
Downs: I think that’s one of the lessons of that finale. In the finale, it is her ego and her fear that’s holding on so tightly to this holy grail that makes her betray her closest relationship and her creative partnership. In some ways, the show is very much — it’s a wish, and it’s about never having a final act and being able to evolve and be able to get better and continue to grow. And [it’s] about how if you’re someone like Deborah and you’re knocked down 1,000 times, if you get up 1,001, you can do anything. It is very much, I hope, very aspirational in that way. But it also is a cautionary tale that even in doing that, it can’t be the only thing or the thing that you’re willing to sacrifice other people.
Villarreal: Is how far Paul is willing to go different from how far Deb was willing to?
Downs: Absolutely. That’s the thing — Getting to be as famous as Deborah is and getting to reach that level, there are certainly people who have gotten there because of their God given talent, and they’re just great. And they’re lucky and they somehow stay grounded. I think there are very few. I think a lot of them have to have something that makes them so ambitious that it makes them — it’s crazy-making, their ambition and what they’re reaching for. I don’t think that I could betray the people in my life for something like that. Even though I am ambitious. I’m very ambitious. But I also recognize how lucky I am, too.
Villarreal: If late night is Deb’s holy grail, what’s Paul’s holy grail? What’s the dream you’re chasing still?
Downs: It’s hard to say, because as cheesy as it sounds, in some ways, I am living my dream. I really, really am. I get to make comedy that people respond to, and I get to do with people I love. It sounds so cheesy and like, cut it, edit this out, edit it out. But I am.
Villarreal: Kayla is rolling her eyes.
Downs: Kayla is probably like, “Jimmy, be a killer. Say you want to host the Oscars.” And that used to be my dream. As a kid, I wanted to host the Oscars. I actually did. But I want to continue doing what I’m doing and, hopefully, do it even more. I’ve always written for other people to be the lead. And I’ve been very comfortable doing that because, even though I am an actor and I love performing and I want to do that, it’s been very rewarding for me to be in a support role. But hey, I would love to be the lead of something. And, you know, if I can keep making people laugh and keep doing comedy, then I’ll still feel really lucky.
Villarreal: I want to talk about that final moments from the finale, which was just stunning to watch, the scene between Deb and Ava. It was sort of foreshadowed at the top of the season, which opens with the back of Deb and the Caesar statue in Vegas foreshadowing this backstabbing. How soon did you know where you were heading with this season?
Downs: We had pitched the whole series when we pitched the show, and we knew where we wanted the final scene in the final episode to happen. We knew that Season 3 was going to be the quest to get this chair and to host “Late Night.” And we always knew that Deborah and Ava would work together on that, that it would become their shared dream. But it wasn’t until, honestly, the first week of the writers’ room that we said, “Ava takes it.” And that was so — it was such a great moment to say that and have everyone in the writers’ room be like, “Yeah, that’s right; that feels really right.” Because we want Ava to evolve and step into her power. And we want them to be together. And what it lets us do is this thing we try and do, which is kind of blow up the show every season, but also reset the dynamic because that dynamic — the conflict, the friction — is part of the comedy. And so you need that. You can’t just have it be totally harmonious. It was an exciting way for us to, we thought, handcuff them together and give us real stakes for Season 4 because it would be so juicy. And also, as hard as it was for Deborah to get that job, it is way harder to launch a late-night show and make it successful and keep it on the air. So Season 3 was only one step, Season 4 is even more her biggest challenge yet.
Villarreal: You need to get Conan [O’Brien] on to give her some advice.
Downs: I know. We are such Conan fans. And he has been really nice about the show.
Villarreal: Do you think Deb, in some form, is proud of Ava for that?
Downs: Oh yeah. It’s in the script that something flashes in Deborah’s eyes. It’s anger, yes, but it’s also pride. And it’s also excitement because it’s the same as the pilot when they met. This girl called her a hack and spoke truth to her and went toe-to-toe with her and was funny. She was like, “Oh, good, a worthy opponent. This is fun.” Because Deborah loves to spar. It’s like part of comedy love language is ribbing each other and sparring. You don’t want to play tennis with someone who can’t play. You want to play a good match. And so I think what we see in the last moment of Season 3 is her saying “It’s on.”
Villarreal: What was Jean’s reaction to reading that?
Downs: It’s so funny because they read it right before the table read. And I think she just texted a million emojis. When she first saw Hannah at the table read, she was like, “Well, well, well.” It’s funny how dropped into the characters they are and how embodied they are, because she was like Deborah. She was like, “I can’t believe she would do this.”
Villarreal: Tell me where you’re at in the process of Season 4 before we wrap. And do you three have a routine before you start a season?
Downs: Yes, we do a period of time we call “the blue sky” where we just talk really big picture. We do like a 30,000-foot view of the season, of all the things that could happen, sometimes on Fridays. We say it’s Flight of Fancy Friday and we just have flights of fancy. Sometimes we do that before we actually begin the writers’ room. So we have time for that to gestate and just to think about it, because a lot of the times when we’re having fun together and we’re not working, it is when some of the best stuff comes. So we kind of let that simmer in the back of our mind. And then we get together with our writers and talk about what the season will be. And we are right now about halfway through the writers’ room of Season 4, so I was Zooming with the room on the way here. And it’s really interesting because it’s a time where you feel like, “Great, we got like half done,” but also as you figure out things that it’s such a house of cards that changes things, so it’s also intense.
Villarreal: Is there something you can tell us, tease us with, that won’t make sense now, but will when it returns?
Downs: Hmm. Because I can tell you some things that will make total sense. We pick up very shortly after that last moment, so I can tell you that —
Villarreal: So, no year time jump.
Downs: No year time job. We’re talking 35-minute time jump. But something that won’t make sense… I’m trying to think of like words I can say. I can say “dance.”
Villarreal: OK.
Downs: I can say “dance.” I can say “cocaine.” I can say “bitch.” And I can say “‘Lassie’ reboot.” That’s all I can say. And that was probably too much. OK. Cut that out too. No, no, whatever, it’s fine.
Villarreal: Before I let you go, though, I have to know: What’s it like playing pickleball with Helen Hunt as she’s hurling slurs at you?
Downs: Oscar-worthy. It is Oscar-worthy. She was so funny because she is a pickleball player, and both Meg and I had to take lessons. And on our first lesson, Meg showed up in Crocs, and the coach was like, “That might be dangerous. You might, like, roll an ankle. So, sneakers next time.” The next lesson, she came in Crocs. So, we didn’t really perfect our game, but God, it was fun to be abused by Helen Hunt. It was really fun.
Villarreal: And that line where you tell her to Google how to play — I know it’s so simple, but it had me cackling for minutes. It’s so good. Well, thank you so much.
Downs: Thanks for having me.
Villarreal: Thanks for being here. It was a pleasure. Can’t wait for Season 4.
